To be clear: The headline and first sentence describe fighting and gunfire early Monday "soon after South's closing time" from a "Prestige Sunday" nightclub event.

The last paragraph's reference to "Monday night's shooting" is to that same 2 a.m. incident.

It's great to hear these comments about how wonderful the owners and their wives are, but the simple truth is Sunday nights have been trouble at South for a long time and they didn't pull the plug on the concept until now. If they had nixed hip-hop night six months ago the doors would still be open.

To Alan -

To be clear: The headline and first sentence describe fighting and gunfire early Monday "soon after South's closing time" from a "Prestige Sunday" nightclub event.

The last paragraph's reference to "Monday night's shooting" is to that same 2 a.m. incident.

RESPONSE......WOW....you make it sound as if shootings are acceptable on Sunday Nights/Monday mornings are than Monday nights. Ok....got, and thank you for you're "clarity".

Actually, A.W., I was responding to Stephanie's assumption that this happened after the weekly Family Night. Replying two days later 'cause I missed this while reading the dozens of more rational, constructive comments below.

Really -- that's what's what's top of mind as you read this? A personal attack by first name, employer and street on someone who has absolutely nothing to do with yesterday's situation or South itself?

How profoundly pitiful and petty.

Oh, I get it -- you're parodying John Lithgow's "dancing is evil" character (Rev. Shaw Moore) in the 'Footloose' movie, right?

Almost fooled me into thinking you were serious, Debbie. Good one!

Oh, I am serious, Alan. I would suggest that we ask our local houses of worship to say prayers this weekend for wisdom for our commissioners, safety for our police, and for peace to return to our city.

I sure hope we don't lose all those wonderful young people that won't be able to walk to South dressed to sweat anymore! LMAO

Interesting how off-topic personal attacks, which violate Patch's terms of use, are posted anonymously.

Now, are we to really believe what these owners say about closing? How do we know they are not just staying quiet and planning a comeback. After all, they flew in the face of all that was Birmingham just to make a buck before. Best to keep an eye on the situation.

Dont Blame the owners..Blame the patrons that came and caused trouble.. I have been to South and I have never shot anyone nor brought a gun nor picked a fight!

Wow Debbie... that couldn't be a more unrealistic comment if it tried.. Do you like being a prisoner to your home??? Because I don't!

If not, then I would welcome the Police Chief's departure about as much I welcome South's.

This is the most rediculous comment I can imagine. Police responded and apprehended an attempted murder within minutes. And you slam the police? Totally rediculous! Not many other communities have such a quick response.

from what I understand there were police officers right outside south bar. i dont see how you can say "lazy police." maybe if you were educated you would realize deterrence does not always work. some people just dont care

That is a totally inappropriate comment.. the Birmingham Police are not 'baby sitters' they are here to patrol and keep safe the entire city..not just one bar. That is not fair to slam them! I sense some ignorance. We could increase you personal taxes to support personal bar police support staff if thats what you want!

And we don't have Bham Police officers to 'Babysit' bars! so if you want to pay more taxes yourself....to add extra help thats great... otherwise..your comments were inappropriate and rude and disrespectful for those officers that protect and keep us safe.

@citizenreality

Please don't personally attack me because of my opinion. I am educated, and about the only thing that has anything to do with education is the total lack of grammar/punctuation in your comment.

Agreed. Well stated.

Full discloure--retired PO from Detroit PD. Not to defend South Bar, but barring outright discrimination, which can cause them to get a civil lawsuit, charging a astronomical high cover charge, having a very strict dress code, or raising their drink prices, it's awfully hard as a bar owner to prevent people from coming into your bar. And that's counter productive because you want people in your bar to drink and eat (drinking first, eating later).

It's unfortunate for the South Bar--which goes the way of the Blue Martini.

People make bad choices...Not South Bar..

South Bar didn't make the 'Bad Choices' the people that went there did..and clearly there were not people of any quality that went to South on all the nights that altercations happened..Because you don't see that at the Townsend..or Ellies...or Phoenicia...or 220..or Street Side... Should I continue..?

But I thought the article stated two of the perps were from Southfield, one was from Detroit.

That's not necessarily true. South (and Hamilton Room, and Chen Chow) do everything they can to lure in the crowd that they ultimately got. Talk to any police chief or liquor liability insurance underwriter and they will tell you exactly how you get rid of a criminal element with some easy steps. The bar and restaurant owners just don't want to do it. This closure is just an attempt by South to preserve their license so they can sell it. If you were to put up a normal sports bar or a mixology place there, you won't have an ounce of trouble. Why doesn't Dick O'Dow's or 220 have any trouble with patrons?

Yeah, I live closer to the Emagine in Royal Oak...I go there with my youngest son (age 16). I think it's safer to go there than the Paladium or Birmingham movie theaters. Plus, we can ride our bicycles the 3 miles, lock them outside, and either bike to Leo's Coney Island or any of the other places (he likes Comet Burgers) nearby.

I could be wrong. Safety is a perception. But my perception, as least for movies after 6PM, is it's better to go to the Emagine in Royal Oak. The Paladium or Birmingham Theater is ok before 6 PM.

It all boils down to lazy police. If their were more patrols of actual police officers, then a lot of this brazen criminal activity would be deterred. A police officers job is enforcement of the law I don't disagree, but what makes a police force effective is deterrence--and this is what the lazy birmingham police fail to do. Personally, I attribute this to them depending to heavily on their surveillance cameras and not taking the time to walk/patrol the beat.

Ah the Blue Martini....got suckered into taking my daughters (age 22 and 23 at the time) to this establishment. What a mistake. Overpriced drinks galore, and I don't even drink!!! I drank two tonic waters with ice, my daughters had 2 martinis apiece, and I got the heck out of there and took them to the Detroit Brewery--a place I could afford!!

LOL, perfect description.

You're right. I think the reason is because the criminal element that holds up the so-called thug lifestyle as a paragon, wants to be where the money is.

Agree. Birmingham is turning into Pleasure Island like in FL. Bistros a great idea but the 'night club' establishments are not needed. They encourage the late night scene that we do not want or need. Also agree with the Cougar comment - come on ladies act and dress your age. You are just embarrassing your kids.

Funny you both should mention the women. I was just chatting with a friend and told her I thought I was prepared for just about everything when the Greed Is Good Commission took over, but I wasn't prepared for a downtown where I can't tell local matrons from hookers.

Matt:

I somewhat feel for you but you can't lump everyone into the same group. Hopefully you'll read my comments. I've "called out" some folks because I wouldn't want certain types of people in my neighborhood, regardless of race or ethnicity.

Try to keep an open mind. I know its difficult to do when you see what you've worked hard for and value threatened. Unfortunately, its happen to me more than once and I ended up moving.

B'ham can still be the best community with racial and ethnic diversity, and attract people that know how to act in public and respect the rights of others.

Solid, sensible points, Matt. I've also spoken with both families that invested heavily in South and was equally impressed by their professionalism and commitment to our city.

In truth, however, South didn't somehow spontaneously become a Sunday night magnet for "a shady group of people to party."

The owners hired Metro Detroit promoters to "host" urban contemporary DJ events ('South Sundays,' 'Prestige Sunday') and publicize them to clubgoers via social media, email invites and other buzz generators. The vast majority of guests were young professionals and certainly not "a shady group," but as the popularity peaked and word spread . . . well, this article tells what happened.

Be careful what you wish for is a lesson learned expensively by Joe and Bethany Spadafore and Steve and Emily Puertas.

Amen. We need to write the City Commissioners and show up at the meetings.

Wow... and most establishments don't serve Petrossian Caviar and Crystal Champagne either..so should I move?

Well-said, B.J. And our community has a prominent vacancy in the Principal Shopping District that I hope won't stay empty for a year months, as happened with the former Forte restaurant site across the street.

Better lose one's JOB than their LIVES, even if it means a building is vacant.

I wonder how the South Employee who is physically SCARRED after being STABBED with FORKS is doing?

Are you saying that white people can't like ranch dressing and Henessy?

Why would you be ashamed? There are middle class blacks in Birmingham and surrounding communities, and they want this pit cleaned up as much or more than we do. This "shame" smacks of pseudo-white man's burden guilt that black professionals and families hate hearing.

You're right, it should be more diverse. Why don't you do something about it, and leave Ferndale (an already diverse community) and buy a house in Birmingham?

@Kyle Morgan:

Thanks for the offer--but I already pay 30% of my net retirement check to live in Fendale (way too much--my rule was 25%. To live in B'ham it would cost 40%---I do like to eat and wear clothes, save some cash, etc). I have looked at some apartments just inside B'ham limits and they're nice.

Anyway, i rather visit then live in B'ham. Dont worry, I feel the same about Royal Oak too.

Your perspective enriches this discussion, Burton. Comments by Detroit News readers today on that site's South article echo your sentiments:

* "OMG. We ruin it for ourselves. . . . Now look -- All gone!" -- Kairi Horsley, Southfield, age 33
* "Everytime! What a mess. Can't have nothing, can't do nothing." -- Tammie T. King, RN

Facebook profile photos alongside both posts show African-American faces.

Roger:

B'ham is trying to become a "destination location" similar to Royal Oak or the D. Mine you, when I worked for Detroit PD, I was amazed at kids/adults from 18-30 that would come from miles around to places downtown in the D, the WSU (midtown) area, and now even the area near the Fisher Bldg. It's like the United Nations, all races/ethnicities, etc. I considered most of the places somewhat eclectic, but on a Friday and Saturday night there were lines outside. Some of the area on the fringes of these places I consider suspect, but as we all know, when your the ages I mentioned, your mindset is that you'll live forever.

It's not wrong to want to capture some of this for any community. It's what keeps an area vibrant and a potential permanent residence location for young couples, who later have families and want to enjoy a solid school system--a major attraction for B'ham. I think what happened is that ownership in the South Bar didn't have the right experience to run it in B'ham.

Great comment. It's not about race, it's about a downtown full of nightclubs versus a bedroom community with a charming and usable CBD.

John:

I agree with you that B'ham has other problems. And there is some truth about the comment of "kids being kids" to a certain degree. Unfortunately, what kids are doing today is much more dangerous thatn when I was in high school, i.e., smoke the cigarette real fast before Father so-in-so caught you or Sister holy water came by. And yeah there was the Boone's Farm at age 16 when I was a third wheel on an older sister's date and was sternly told "if you get sick, I'll never take you anywhere with me." While I do not condone pot smoking, I can see a kid smoking a joint in the restroom in the bathroom of a movie theater and being an idiot and passing out from doing too much. The antique rifle the kid had on his back in downtown B'ham is extreme, but hey, the NRA loved it and the jury acquitted him and at least he wasn't SHOOTING it. The robbery in the parking garage was unfortunate for the couple. However, those incidents, while frightening to the community, are relatively few. Overall, B'ham residents have it pretty good.

But it was much different at the South Bar. They have a lawsuit against them from Braylon Edwards who said the stabbings that happened outside the bar involved others, not him, and cost him a multi-year contract, even though he knew the parties involved. They had several shootings as well. This is something no communty needs. If the owners can't control it, then it's time to close the bar.

My father's eye doctor was murdered several years ago in a Birmingham garage by a couple consisting of a black male and his white girlriend. They admitted it was her upscale Toyota SUV that attracted them to target her. Now who or what is to blame here. The shootings in Colorado certainly came out of left field from a highly educated "quiet" "intelligent' white male. Who is to blame> I agree with Greg that racism has a long shelf life, all of us are infected and are just not aware of it. Even Jesse Jackson admitted he was relieved when he turned around to discover that the teenagers following him on a dark street were white.In one case I was taken to task for TMI when I mentioned a lady who happened to be black was bl;ack to a black friend. Should I have been more sensitive and PC, in this case probably yes. My point is we all make racial faux pas as we attempt to demonstrate that we are free from prejudice. As for collective racism that results in exclusion from employment in historically racist suburban communities that has no place todays society. It is up to that community to correct the situation instead of keeping their heads in the sand and cities such as Birmingham who may make one or two token hires should realize that single step is not the final retort to a recent and despicable tradition of exclusion.

Agreed... and while we are at it..lets try to figure out a way to curtail the 'trouble makers' from coming to Birmingham because clearly they have a grudge and are just coming here to make trouble...Birmingham didn't run like this as little as 6 years ago...

Hope you've got a large tube of Ben-Gay or Aspercreme, G.W., 'cause this sure is a mighty painful s-t-r-e-t-c-h from the topic we're discussing here.

But hey, if butting in with a pet peeve feels appropriate, it's a free local news site ...

That's fraud, and they should be reported to the police or the Secretary of State.

Ok..Yep..you are so right.. and if you have ever been involved with someone who is truly handicapped.. like my mother who was..before she passed... you will agree that it is horrible for others to abuse the handicap priveledge..

Oops, is this conversation just for people who agree with each other? Or lob shots anonymously?

B'ham Mom

What other nightclubs in B'ham? There might be others that are "lowkey" and I'm aware of a few from back in the day, but the South Bar was known as the place for a younger crowd.

R Jeppostol:
As a retired PO, I've got to stand up for the B'ham PD and their use of CCTV. On the one hand, I'm not a fan of "big brother" using cameras. I remember observing folks doing all types of things downtown in the D using CCTV, i.e., fornicating, fighting, robbery, etc. I don't want to perpetuate the view that downtown is rampant with crime (NOT!). It's the safest location in the D. And having CCTV helps quite a bit.
CCTV is a deterrent. I remember the story of the guy that damaged several sidwalk items after the bars were closed as he walked down Old Woodward. The tv news story showed his face clearly and what he did. You hope a criminal would think twice before doing something. Additionally, from what I read of this incident, the B'ham PD were on the spot in no time to apprehend the offenders. If I remember, that's called good police work.

@Burton Knows,

What you say makes a lot of sense, but I don't think the CCTV in birmingham is a deterrent because most people, especially those not from the city or those who don't frequent it during the day, are not aware they are even there. That is why in the past, although mostly mockingly, I've said that signs should be up warning people the city is monitored by CCTV. That said, I still respect your point of view and your input.

Careful JN:
You are doing what I feared when I put my soul out there and made my statements. The people that were attracted to the South Bar had money. Unfortunately, some were very stupid and ignorant. The "demographic" you are fearful of could afford to be in B'ham. However, manners and respect are taught and learned.

Don't confuse one with the other.

Roger Gienapp:

It sounds like a more thorough vetting process is needed before the City Council/Commission approves liquor licenses for establishments like the South Bar. I'm not privy to the current process used by your local government, but maybe there should be a focus on how to improve the process to get the right owners and the right bar.

I've seen some successful bar/food establishments that have survived, and thrived, for years. It gets down to marketing to get who you want into the bar--young professionals with disposable income. For the South Bar to survive, it wasn't going to make it only with B'ham residents.

But I agree a recalibration of "who do we want at that location" is important. The South Bar was a focal point on Old Woodward--for better or for worst. Hopefully the experience of this place, and what happened at the Blue Martini, will get a positive discussion going on what is wanted.

You don't need a good college degree to have a well run, honorable, profitable company. Don't confuse that with the "quietly and honorably" well to do couples. That's a blanket statement; that any business owner without those qualities are into "riff raff", & should not have been made.

Debbie Thomas:

Are you stating that the only way to make money is to get a professional degree and make their money "quietly?" (Please don't say you work in the banking industry--a lot of "quiet" money is being earned there--questionably, but quietly). The owners in the South Bar took a risk and now they are paying for it.

Entrepenuership is what made this country--and not everyone had a degree to do it. I guess Bill Gates was stupid--didn't have a "professional" degree, or any degree at all when he left Harvard. Ditto for Steve Jobs. What an idiot--and it showed for both. Just look how they ended up. What failures.

Please don't mistaken having a professional degree in having a leg up in business or any professional endeavor in the business world/life in general. There are many people that have contributed mightly in the business world and have their hard earn results to prove it. Having a degree (I can speak on this--have a bachelor's, an M.A., and five classes froma dual MBA/MSF degree) implies you can stick with something and complete it. Heck, you might have even excelled in academia (oops, forgot to say I taught undergrad/grad courses at MSU, U-M, and WSU). However, you don't corner the market on intelligence or entrepreneurship.

Nor does it give you honor--just ask Bernie Madoff.

I was just playing the odds. As I told my children, the odds are you aren't Bill Gates or Steve Jobs. First, get a professional degree, then do what you wish. Time spent in college is rarely a waste unless you are the rare person who just isn't suited for advanced education. (BTW there are many jobs in the financial services sector that are quiet and honorable.)

@Debbie Thomas:

I won't digress into the other factors that play a role in your success that need inclusion into your probability equation, other than to say that where you go to get the professional degree, and what you get that advance education in play a major role, i.e., the number of young lawyers without jobs and $100K+ in student loans that are suing the law schools they attended because they don't have a job.

Closer to home, my M.D. brother-in-law versus my much loved youngest daughter with dual MA degrees in Arts Administration and Policy/Modern Art, Theory and Criticism from the School of the Art Institute of Chicago (SAIC) in May 2012. Both are considered professionals. While the b-i-law has been in the profession for nearly thirty years (and has the well-earned trappings to show for it) my daughter is 29, $100K in student loan debt, and lives in one of the most expensive cities in the country (Chicago) and a dangerous one at that. She's doing free-lance work (there goes that entrepreneur thing again) and plans on staying in Chi-town (has bartending and waitress skills).

My point, two different scenarios both with professional degrees. Nothing guaranteed. I have a ton of faith in my daughter--she works extremely hard and received many awards, grants, fellowships, etc., while at SAIC. But it will be an uphill climb in this current economy. My b-i-law? Getting two kids through college without financial aid--but I think he'll be fine.

Sorry, B. K.--I didn't include all the details of my full motherly lecturette: Only go to a name brand school, only take a course of study that has lots of job openings, and get grants, not loans (or pay as you go). If you want to be an artist, great. First, get your LPN or RN, working as you do that. Then take art classes at night until you can get a good job in that field.

@DT....ah SAIC is the top art school in the country, i.e., a "name brand school."...not my designation but rated by their peers in the most recent publications that everyone uses in making decisions of investing in their education. You don't have to take my word for it though, do a little homework and tell me I'm wrong...

@ D.T. I apologize I misspoke. "In a survey conducted by the National Arts Journalism Program at Columbia University, SAIC was named the 'most influential art school' by art critics at general interest news publications from across the United States. In 2012, US News ranked SAIC the second best overall graduate program for fine arts in the U.S. tying with the Rhode Island School of Design."

My bad.

I'll totally accept what you say about the art school. But I can't agree with the parts about taking $100,000 loans for an art degree.

@D.T. Now, we BOTH AGREE. She turned down a free ride to a top 15 business school to go to art school...hey its her life, she's young, and I DON"T pay for the loans!!

Yikes, you're probably a better parent than me. I would have been hiding those art school apps on her!

Mrs. Thomas - while I do understand your need for your children to attend college, let me give you a another woman's perspective. I graduated from one of the top college preparatory schools in the country - Cranbrook Kingswood. Upon my graduation, my mother told me I was on my own. I had $50 in my pocket and all my belongings in 2 boxes, a footlocker, and a suitcase. My roommate's family was kind enough to take me in. I tried the college thing - I didn't know what I wanted to be when I grew up so I decided NOT to waste anyone's money - mine or the college's to find out. I dropped out. I trained myself as a secretary while working odd jobs for a temp agency. I now live in Birmingham and have established a very reputable business that grows every day - all without a college degree. What I am trying to say is that sometimes you really can make something of yourself without a degree.

@ Courteney G:

Outstanding post!! I'll look for you in a future edition of Fortune magazine!!

I wish all well, too, I just happen to prefer the odds for the financial stability for a twentysomething who has a carefully selected professional degree from a name brand university. Just a matter of how you think the best way is to play your hand. These 2 couples with the hellhole South kept saying how they wanted to belong in the community. I just pointed out how it is most commonly done.

People without anything of real value to contribute usually end up playing the race card.

Matt F:

Be careful what you wish for. Rest assured there are residents in your community that feel they pay enough for public safety services, i.e., police and fire. Second, what are you willing to trade off if residents don't want taxes raised? The costs in terms of salaries/benefits/retirements for public safety are not cheap (although there is a misperception that most public safety retirees are "raking in the dough." Guess I joined the wrong PD. I'm just gettin by on my monthly pension check).

Another poster mentioned there should be signs stating downtown is being watched by CCTV. That's a double edge sword. Some residents/visitors will feel safe. Others will think wistfully, "I remember when this was a nice neighborhood/city. Its not safe anymore. Maybe I should leave." Neighborhoods and cities have been decimated by less.

Certainly an issue for discussion. Other communities recently have voted for police millages, i.e., Ferndale. And Royal Oak is putting the issue to its voters in November (that was after they got major concessions from the police union though). So maybe you're right and residents in B'ham will approve it.

Worth a shot.

@Matt F:

I apologize if my response to your previous post implied that I felt you implied race. I re-read it and you do not in anyway say that.

My apologies if my response to you says that you are.

Peace.

I think we're talking about a culture of laziness among the BPD. Given problems like these only recently started emerging, I think they've gotten used to the easy life of just showing up for work and doing a routine, uneventful patrol every 2 hours or whatever. Either that, or it's sheer incompetence.

At any rate, I think they could stand to work a little bit harder. Although I can't say for sure, I'd venture a strong guess that they're among the highest paid police forces in michigan.

Add to that, they recently accepted the role of dispatch for Beverly Hills. My qualm with this is why take on added load when you're barely squeaking by as it is. Shame.

@Matt F:

Unless you put a moat around B'ham the incidents you mentioned are going to happen. However, from the news I've read, the majority of the problems were in some way connected to the South Bar (not all for enough to where the establishment is now closing its doors). The question is, "how much is too much, and what are residents willing to pay to get the needed results or cut in one area to shore up public safety?"

According to the 2011 audited financial statements for B'ham, public safety has a net tax cost of 44% of the total primary government activities for the city. Legacy costs from retirements and OPEB increased 10 percent. The current operating mills, not including schools, was 15.6005 mills, and rose due to meet debt requirements for drains and parks and recs bonds, fund refuse collection, and support the library. While B'ham has a AAA bond rating, and the costs for public safety decreased from the previous fiscal year, it's still a significant portion of the city's general fund expenditures.

Your right that residents and visitors should feel safe. You know your community better than I do. But unless there is a major reconfiguration in the budget, or demand for services related to social, political or economic forces, it might be a hard sell.

FYI-my source for the info was the MI Dept of Treasury website, Local Government Finance, under audited financial statements. B'ham's website might have it as well.

And to add insult to injury, these are not just shots, but *laser-sight guided* shots lol.

@R Jeppostol:

Without looking at capital spending, and normally public safety includes police and fire expenditures, most of your costs in both of these areas are salaries and benefits. And that holds true for community. And remember, new toys, i.e., cars/fire trucks/other capital equipment depreciate over time. But labor costs rise over time, barring wage concessions and changing benefit costs.

Another tibit....unless there is an actual physical confrontation, there is no crime. Yes, people can yell and shout at each other. While at 2:00AM that is probably disturbing the peace/disorderly person, do you utilize resources if people are walking in opposite directions, or going to their cars to leave? I know, I know, the possibilities are endless. I will readily admit in the day I avoided some arrests because both parties were going the opposite directions to their vehicles and I would give one or the other words of encouragement to get in their cars and leave the area ("shut the he_l up and go home before you get arrested"). Hey, it worked more often than not for me.

We will differ on what B'ham PD did. Again, from all accounts, they responded quickly, did appropriate action, which resulted in safe guarding lives and property.

Don't forget Corner Bar.

Agreed, good post

Your last remark is well taken as there is a lot of conternation over the drain on public safety with the added costs of catering to bars who frankly don't give a damn here in Royal Oak. Bars that donate to the campaign coffers of commissioners and do little else except for an occassional charity PR which is a drop in the bucket. It gets worse as the vast majority of our "mega-bars" that cause the problems are not owned by residents. When the blacktinted neon lit party busses show up to double park downtown it looks and sounds like like the invasion of Poland complete with five to six divisions of motorcycles originally confined to two "bike nights".. What do residents get out of this, gornicht, nada, nothing. Retail leaves as landlords then hold out for higher rents expected from bars. Is this the future of Michigan downtowns?

@Dr. Ron:

I don't know about your comments. I remember more than one incident when I knew the kids involved were B'ham kids (went to a private Jesuit H.S. with B'ham kids. Thirty years later, i can still tell B'ham kids). One incident in particular occurred at Panera Bakery.

I was waiting for my ex to pick up our son after I going to the Palladium and spending the weekend with me. Like lemmings to the sea, a swarm of kids, black, white, asian came into the place. I pegged them for B'ham and Bloomfield Hills kids, i.e., the clothes and mannerisms. The only problem is they were VERY LOUD and disturbing other customers. The manager swooped in and told them it was a $5 purchase requirement or they had to leave. In similar lemming fashion they left. My point: if teenagers have nothing to do you have a dangerous situation. And that's a problem regardless of social status (I worked Belle Isle one summer and a group of young white teenagers from Bloomfield were on the island and got into a jam. I stopped them on a traffic violation. The kid tried to say her parents knew where they were. When I pulled out my phone and asked for her phone number she started to cry. I still gave her the ticket and told her good luck in telling her parents. I asked why she came so far. Response-bored!!).

Yes loitering is a problem. Curfews are a solution. But it ain't just low income kids in downtown B'ham hanging out.

Burton,

Please don't come to the false conclusion that Birmingham and Bloomfield children can't be out of hand -- they can. My point is with the entry fee to live in Birmingham, it's quite obvious the trouble at South, Corner, Chen Chow and Hamilton aren't usually local. You have owners of these establishments catering to obnoxious trash that want to party in Birmingham in a failed attempt at feeling important. We pay the entry fee for a home here because it's a safe tony enclave. We don't care about nor do we want nightclubs. Birmingham is turning into Somerset Collection 2.0 and we have the city commission to blame. It's not necessarily a black and white issue, it's a catering to trash issue.

I respectfully disagree. South has functioned as a magnet for young adults with impaired impulse control. All else being equal, the closing of South will result in Birmingham becoming a safer city which I view as a very positive outcome. Additional, the end of South will free up BPD officers to focus upon other potential trouble spots in addition to their normal patrol activity. Finally, I refuse to accept and thus normalize disorderly behavior and gunshots in the central business district of my home city.

Thomas, I respectfully disagree that Birmingham has become a safer city with the closing of one problematic establishment. Birmingham is a magnet for these outsiders because of the aura of wealth the town oozes. These obnoxious wannabes will just shift to the other gin joints in town that cater to their needs, notably; Chen Chow, Corner and Hamilton. The commission, the PD and the homeowners need to put pressure on these establishments to put a stop to their catering and to flush out these goons from ruining the reputation of our town. It really isn't rocket science and this didn't happen overnight.

I don't think stern means what you think it means. This bar had way too many chances and thought they were invincible because it is so hard to get a liquor license revoked in the state of Michigan. They more or less thumbed their nose at Birmingham and the commission after repeated disturbances on or near their establishment, while continuing to cater to the problematic outsiders. The same way Chen Chow was caught valeting cars past their midnight deadline. Once these bar owners con the commissions and have the license and the permits they know they're nearly untouchable.

Who did they think they were going to attract with that type of classy marketing...doesn't take a genius.

OpenIf they stays open then how about you gets yourself a job there, or maybe one of your family members and I hope none of you's gets shot or stabbed.

Seem like until someone do get shot & killed at South that the lights in someone heads will finally goes ons. Is that what it will take? Might as well be a South supporter who can take a bullet for the cause and it ain't gonna be me , so GOOD LUCK with that one.

For those who "hope" that South stay open, your hopes can be realized; South can OPEN IN ANOTHER CITY where there is a greater inherent danger in line with South's environment.

Greg, how are you doing? Sometimes it is not the fault of a business and sometimes it is. You would think that after the first few incidents a metal detector would be brought in. When bullets fly sometimes you're lucky and sometimes you die.

you continue to make yourself look foolish. have you ever been downtown when the bars let out? I have and there are always police sitting outside of the bars. maybe you should get your head out of your "@ss" and get a reality check.

@R Justadummy:

Very clever, creating a dummy account which mocks my name. Who really looks foolish? Quit hiding and post your opinion without looking like a coward. And as to your comment, LOL, if the cops are sitting out there when the fights occur maybe they're the one's with their heads in their @sses.

Either way, until you decide to man up and use a real account--not one created 5 hours ago for the purpose of attacking me--I will disregard anything else you have to say. Of course, if you are someone affiliated with the police in Birmingham, which I suspect you might be given your trepidation about posting as yourself, than all I can say is get better,... please.

Your original comment yesterday is an amusing example of irony, R.J. #1:

While sitting on your butt -- presumably inside, perhaps during a work break -- you dare to insult law enforcement pros who protect and serve our community with street patrols around the clock.

Someone needs to get off his butt all right, whether slim or stout, and step away from the screen. Enough with the self-ridicule, sir. It's pathetic, really.

@Alan Stamm:

I sure hope you're taking your own advice, because it sounds like you're a bit butt hurt by my comments about the response by law enforcement to the scene. If that's the case, than I appreciate your input, but suggest you follow the advice you gave to G.W. earlier and buy some ben-gay and aspercreme for the pain.

No comment.

"Dress to Impress. Upscale Attire."
"DRESS CODE FULLY ENFORCED: NO Athletic Apparel, NO Hats/Caps, NO Sneakers "
-- From posters and online promotions for South Sundays urban music parties this year

Hear, hear! I join the salute.

Any and all, *really*?

Out with 'No shirt, no shoes, no service?' . . . Begone, stodgy bias against jeans, shorts or tank tops at posh restaurants/clubs? . . . Lighten up, taverns prohibiting motorcycle 'colors'?

Mr. Maitre'd, tear down this dress code! . . . Don't tread on my threads!

No oppression of the casually clad. All together now:
"One, two, three four -- we don't want your stinkin' war(drobe)."

Greg, I definitely agree with you. Not only would such a dress code be fraught with horrible implications of all kinds, it would be totally impractical and nearly impossible to enforce. Supposing such a dress code were put into play, would police officers be expected to hand out tickets for attire infractions? Judging by the upsurge of crime in the city, and the BPD's already glaring inability to handle said crime in a timely fashion, I think they already have more than enough on their plate.

Greg in spirit I agree with you, however the dress of those who are enamored with the black "gangsta" both black and white taken from prisons where belts are not worn and clothes are baggy also goes with the :you don't mess with me" pose and looking for trouble attitude complete with scowls and smirks. For a while there was this white T shirt thing going on as this became a symbol of a local gang In Pontiac where there was one bar that did not permit overly baggy attire, T-shirts, etc even though half the young clientle were black. As a result their downstairs bar soon became all black with only rap music played and nobody cared about the clothes in what what appeared as self segregation.So this was now acceptable and ironically there were fewer incidents downstairs than in the racially mixed upstairs co.
I don't know if any conclusions can be drawn but dress codes have existed for hundreds of years. No matter what color you are there are still restaurants that will not admit a male not wearing a suit jacket. I still wince at the dress code sign for the EMagine theater in Royal Oak personally, however I understand the fear of specifically young black men in baggy attire with pants that display their underwear that is behind it.

Phil:
Depends where you are...somethin' about "that gree" handles many a dispute about whether a person should be a customer at a dining establishment. Granted, the majority of time I've called a restaurant for a clear definition of "casual dress" if its stated on a website. Heck, a few years back I spending $80+ on dinner, dessert at an Ann Arbor bar. Then another $50+ in the cigar lounge with a bottle of wine. I was wearing blue jeans, a shirt with a collar (no t-shirt) and my date had a very nice summer dress. The person at the reservation desk said, "no problem." Yes there were people that were a little more formally dressed that we were, but it wasn't a problem.

And while B'ham has a nice downtown, Ann Arbor has an OUTSTANDING downtown.

@ Phil:

oops, that spelling thing. Statement should say "somethin about that 'green'...

my bad.

That would be nice.

I was fortunate enough to witness our country swear-in it's first black president. I don't know if I'll be so lucky when it comes to Birmingham swearing-in its first black or hispanic police officer.

Greg:

I must disagree that it's all about racial profiling...and I've been a victim of such. I think a line has to be drawn somewhere, depending upon the attire you want in your establishment...and business owners have a right to define a dress code. As with any code, however, it cannot be used as a veiled disguise to keep certian people out.

I don't thing B'ham will ever return to its past...the "cat's out of the bad" so to speak. When I was downtown last Friday from 4PM until 8:45PM, there were all sorts of nationalities/ethnicities/races, etc., walking around and enjoying the nightlife. That translates into ALOT OF MONEY!! (although someone please talk to the Kilwin's staff..I'm three steps into the door and someone says "what can I get you today?" I responded, "well let me look at your ice cream counter and I'll let you know." That's taking customer service a little too far).

I believe we're at a point with race relations where the "old guard" i.e., blacks/whites that grew up in the period of the 1960s-1980s needs to give way to the generation born and raised in the 1980s-2000s. In 2008, I was teaching an intro American government class at WSU and asked the students if issues of race were more predominant with my generation as opposed to them. Overwhelmingly, black and white students stated it was an older generation thing. Additionally, many thought it wasn't as large an issue in getting employment, housing, etc.

Were these students wrong?

Greg's right...I had a black officer on a bicycle wave at me the other night in front of the infamous Chase Bank (near the former South Bar).

I remember when I wouldn't have never thought that would happen. Change does goes occur. But sometimes not fast enough.

Don't yawn, for anyone who "loathes censorship in any form...." should be an advocate for resurrecting the "n" word.

Ron,

The next time perhaps a more immediate intervenion is timely on your part. In any event good to read your comments.

Thousands of cities in our country with all white municipal governments are under duress and in decay. We have entire cities and counties in our nation that have filed for bankruptcy all of them with white public officials.

So what is your point????